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No Spark using Fi timing control wiring

#1 · August 12, 2019, 1:40 pm

Quote from 4every0ung on August 12, 2019, 1:40 pm
Ford 351W (b&s to 405), FiTech Go EFI-600, FiTech in-tank fuel pump, MSD 6AL CDI, MSD Blaster SS coil, MSD Pro Billet dist w/ phased rotor, mech adv locked out. Is wired per FiTech schematic #12. (use FiTech for timing control with after market CDI ignition)

Initial issue was no communication between programmer and ECU. That was corrected when FiTech replaced the ECU and harness. Once sorted, did the set up: Mechanical and ECU base timing set at 13 deg with VRCoil vs Tach ignition signal. Verified 12v+ at white (key) wire connector in "Crank" and "Run) key positions. Red (power) connected to starter terminal #6 ga wire from battery. Orange wire to (in-tank) FiTech FI fuel pump All fuses are good.

Get the fuel pump run and priming shot when key turned to "Run". Engine cranks good, but does not fire. Tested and there is no spark

Troubleshooting: Tested MSD CDI for coil output by; 1) grounding the terminal of FiTech black wire/ MSD white wire connector and 2) by shorting the pins of distributor pickup connecter going to MSD box. Both produced very healthy sparks. I then connected the dizzy pick up output to the MSD CDI input and reconnected the 4 wire FiTech connector with CDI white wire lifted. Engine starts easily but only runs a few seconds. I have not connected the tach output of CDI to FiTech ECU;, so there is no rpm signal for injectors.

I really would like to use the EFI for timing control #1 because I believe it will give better performance and #2 because I threw the distributer mechanical advance springs, weights and bushings away when I locked it out...

My guess is the FI ECU is not grounding the coil or not seeing the input from the distributor pick up. I did tickle / short the distributer pick up input connector terminals to ECU and got no spark with key in "Run" position

I have good clean grounding (8 ga) on both sides of front frame one on rear frame and on either side of the engine so that should not be an issue I do not daisy chain ground wires. Everything has its own ground wire either to frame or engine.

I want to run another check to see if it will run if I give it a tach signal from the MSD box, but would like to have a signal for the tach gauge. Don't want to rely on using the programmer for tach. At least if it runs, I can continue with basic tuning until the EFI timing control problem is resolved. Question.. Can I splice into the tach output of MSD to have good rpm signal at both instrument panel gauge and EFI input?

I have been in contact with FiTech technical support. Besides being very slow to respond, they are telling me to check things that I told them I have already done, and the results thereof. i.e. tach/2wire-coil, 12 volts on white key wire, priming shot when key ON, Tested MSD CDI circuits. Grounded MSD etc.

I know this is a bit long winded, but wanted to give the best picture I could. Anyone out there with ideas for additional troubleshooting steps, or have a solution, your feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards JJ

Ford 351W (b&s to 405), FiTech Go EFI-600, FiTech in-tank fuel pump, MSD 6AL CDI, MSD Blaster SS coil, MSD Pro Billet dist w/ phased rotor, mech adv locked out. Is wired per FiTech schematic #12. (use FiTech for timing control with after market CDI ignition)

Initial issue was no communication between programmer and ECU. That was corrected when FiTech replaced the ECU and harness. Once sorted, did the set up: Mechanical and ECU base timing set at 13 deg with VRCoil vs Tach ignition signal. Verified 12v+ at white (key) wire connector in "Crank" and "Run) key positions. Red (power) connected to starter terminal #6 ga wire from battery. Orange wire to (in-tank) FiTech FI fuel pump All fuses are good.

Get the fuel pump run and priming shot when key turned to "Run". Engine cranks good, but does not fire. Tested and there is no spark

Troubleshooting: Tested MSD CDI for coil output by; 1) grounding the terminal of FiTech black wire/ MSD white wire connector and 2) by shorting the pins of distributor pickup connecter going to MSD box. Both produced very healthy sparks. I then connected the dizzy pick up output to the MSD CDI input and reconnected the 4 wire FiTech connector with CDI white wire lifted. Engine starts easily but only runs a few seconds. I have not connected the tach output of CDI to FiTech ECU;, so there is no rpm signal for injectors.

I really would like to use the EFI for timing control #1 because I believe it will give better performance and #2 because I threw the distributer mechanical advance springs, weights and bushings away when I locked it out...

My guess is the FI ECU is not grounding the coil or not seeing the input from the distributor pick up. I did tickle / short the distributer pick up input connector terminals to ECU and got no spark with key in "Run" position

I have good clean grounding (8 ga) on both sides of front frame one on rear frame and on either side of the engine so that should not be an issue I do not daisy chain ground wires. Everything has its own ground wire either to frame or engine.

I want to run another check to see if it will run if I give it a tach signal from the MSD box, but would like to have a signal for the tach gauge. Don't want to rely on using the programmer for tach. At least if it runs, I can continue with basic tuning until the EFI timing control problem is resolved. Question.. Can I splice into the tach output of MSD to have good rpm signal at both instrument panel gauge and EFI input?

I have been in contact with FiTech technical support. Besides being very slow to respond, they are telling me to check things that I told them I have already done, and the results thereof. i.e. tach/2wire-coil, 12 volts on white key wire, priming shot when key ON, Tested MSD CDI circuits. Grounded MSD etc.

I know this is a bit long winded, but wanted to give the best picture I could. Anyone out there with ideas for additional troubleshooting steps, or have a solution, your feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards JJ

#2 · August 12, 2019, 3:36 pm

I could not get FiTech to work with my Mallory ignition box so I pulled it out. Have you tried bypassing the MSD & wiring direct?

Werner Bartels

#3 · August 12, 2019, 11:57 pm

Hi, I have the same setup, MSD pro billet locked out, two wire MSD pickup to TBI input, 12 volts to white write during crank and run, black wire from unit connected to white wire on MSD 6AL box, blue tach input wire not used. The only difference is I put the power wires directly to the battery. Mine runs with the wiring completed as shown in figure#12.

I have seen in other posts to ground the unit at one of the mounting bolts to a good ground or battery. Make sure the battery is fully charged, mine ran like crap until I charged it up. Check for any codes and fix them. Shielding of some wiring may be needed and covered in another post.

You can eliminate the FiTech timing control by following figure 11. It should start with just the base timing set(may need to advance it a bit) it will run like crap though but at least that will point you in the right direction to go to next (issue with the unit?)

cheers

63ChevyII327

#4 · August 18, 2019, 9:58 am

Take the red wire off the starter and take directly to Battery. Also try my ground process that has never failed. 2ga battery to block, 10ga battery to body, 10ga battery to frame.

#5 · August 19, 2019, 10:28 pm

Quote from 4every0ung on August 19, 2019, 10:28 pm
Gentlemen,

Many Thanks for your input

Note My battery is located at rear of vehicle, Approx 8' cable run to starter . It is a new middle of the range quality battery with 600 CA vs the original of 330 CA.

1 am running #2 gauge (welding cable copper strand) wire from battery to starter. I have connected the main EFI power supply at the starter terminal.

"Key on" power is thru an interposing relay with #4 primary wire from the battery and 14 ga wire from relay to ECU wire. Relay is picked up in "Key on" and "Crank" positions. When first cranking, voltage dips to 10.5 for a couple seconds but recovers to 11.3 to 11.6v.

For grounding. I have #2 cable from a common frame mounted (welded) stud near the starter. Engine block is also connected to this stud via #2 cable. I have a second engine / frame ground stud on driver side frame with a #4 ground cable. Both engine / frame grounds are connected to the battery ground (#2 cable) at another stud welded to frame at rear of vehicle near the battery. The battery ground cable is sandwiched between the left and right side frame/engine ground wires. Ground wire to battery post is about 12 inches.

Initially I set ECU up to control timing, but could not get any spark output. I tested the function of MSD unit per their procedure and had excellent high energy spark so I bypassed the EFI timing control, connected the distributor output to MSD, hoping to at least eliminate the CDI as the problem, I put coil wire back on, set ignition to "Tach" and powered the controller off, reset the distributer adjustable rotor to 0, with 13 - 14 deg. physical distributor advance and the distributor is still locked out.

Primed it a couple times and then cranked it over. Engine started after a couple strokes, ran for a few seconds and died.

NOTE: I did not connect the tach signal to the EFI as I was not sure if I could share the MSD tachometer signal with both tachometer and the EFI, so there was no RPM signal to fire the injectors, but it did start which is what I was trying to confirm. Have since confirmed with MSD the Tach signal can be shared and connected the CDI Tach output to both tachometer signal and the EFI "blue" wire. The result is the same. Starts quite easily, but dies within a few (max 5) sec Tach response is good and registers rpm before engine dies.

I will disconnect the EFI power lead from the starter terminal and run a new #10 wire directly from battery post to the EFI power wire in the morning.

I have tested that the EFI body is grounded, but will add a secondary ground wire from throttle body to manifold just to make sure that is covered.

Back again, No change

I also noted the programmer screen goes blank when cranking?? Don't know if that is normal or not. Have tried to initiate data logging, but so far have not been able to collect any data. Get error messages. Will have to study how to start and save data logs. Is there a good write up on setting up, collecting , viewing data logs.?

The error code that comes up is P0505 "IAC Fault) ???

Is there a reference for the system error codes and what they mean??

Anyway, am still waiting for response from FiTech support

Again thanks and I will update progress

Thanks again for your responses.

JJ

Gentlemen,

Many Thanks for your input

Note My battery is located at rear of vehicle, Approx 8' cable run to starter . It is a new middle of the range quality battery with 600 CA vs the original of 330 CA.

1 am running #2 gauge (welding cable copper strand) wire from battery to starter. I have connected the main EFI power supply at the starter terminal.

"Key on" power is thru an interposing relay with #4 primary wire from the battery and 14 ga wire from relay to ECU wire. Relay is picked up in "Key on" and "Crank" positions. When first cranking, voltage dips to 10.5 for a couple seconds but recovers to 11.3 to 11.6v.

For grounding. I have #2 cable from a common frame mounted (welded) stud near the starter. Engine block is also connected to this stud via #2 cable. I have a second engine / frame ground stud on driver side frame with a #4 ground cable. Both engine / frame grounds are connected to the battery ground (#2 cable) at another stud welded to frame at rear of vehicle near the battery. The battery ground cable is sandwiched between the left and right side frame/engine ground wires. Ground wire to battery post is about 12 inches.

Initially I set ECU up to control timing, but could not get any spark output. I tested the function of MSD unit per their procedure and had excellent high energy spark so I bypassed the EFI timing control, connected the distributor output to MSD, hoping to at least eliminate the CDI as the problem, I put coil wire back on, set ignition to "Tach" and powered the controller off, reset the distributer adjustable rotor to 0, with 13 - 14 deg. physical distributor advance and the distributor is still locked out.

Primed it a couple times and then cranked it over. Engine started after a couple strokes, ran for a few seconds and died.

NOTE: I did not connect the tach signal to the EFI as I was not sure if I could share the MSD tachometer signal with both tachometer and the EFI, so there was no RPM signal to fire the injectors, but it did start which is what I was trying to confirm. Have since confirmed with MSD the Tach signal can be shared and connected the CDI Tach output to both tachometer signal and the EFI "blue" wire. The result is the same. Starts quite easily, but dies within a few (max 5) sec Tach response is good and registers rpm before engine dies.

I will disconnect the EFI power lead from the starter terminal and run a new #10 wire directly from battery post to the EFI power wire in the morning.

I have tested that the EFI body is grounded, but will add a secondary ground wire from throttle body to manifold just to make sure that is covered.

Back again, No change

I also noted the programmer screen goes blank when cranking?? Don't know if that is normal or not. Have tried to initiate data logging, but so far have not been able to collect any data. Get error messages. Will have to study how to start and save data logs. Is there a good write up on setting up, collecting , viewing data logs.?

The error code that comes up is P0505 "IAC Fault) ???

Is there a reference for the system error codes and what they mean??

Anyway, am still waiting for response from FiTech support

Again thanks and I will update progress

Thanks again for your responses.

#6 · August 21, 2019, 12:46 pm

Thanks again for your input.

I am a happy camper..

Ran isolated 8 gauge wire positive 12v supply from a separate battery to the main power lead of FiTech throttle body and a ground lead to the throttle body. Problem solved.

Will make it the permanent 12 volt circuit for EFI and install diode and switch in positive wire to allow charging from the alternator, but prevent current draw into the vehicle electrical system when starting and to prevent power drain when not running

Now I will wire for EFI system timing control to see if that was the problem there as well..

Cheers

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#7 · August 22, 2019, 7:35 pm

Glad to hear that it is up and running. Power feeds and grounds can cause odd issues. While I was a GM tech in the 90's I had a Firefly that wouldn't shift because of an alternator issue. Alternator tested fine but you unplugged it and the trans shifted, plugged it back in and it didn't. Replace a $1000 alternator in a $9000 car and it was fixed.

cheers

63chevyii327

#8 · April 26, 2020, 10:19 pm

Quote from 4every0ung on August 21, 2019, 12:46 pm

Thanks again for your input.

I am a happy camper..

Ran isolated 8 gauge wire positive 12v supply from a separate battery to the main power lead of FiTech throttle body and a ground lead to the throttle body. Problem solved.

Will make it the permanent 12 volt circuit for EFI and install diode and switch in positive wire to allow charging from the alternator, but prevent current draw into the vehicle electrical system when starting and to prevent power drain when not running

Now I will wire for EFI system timing control to see if that was the problem there as well..

Cheers

JJ

Cheers

Did you get your timing control working? I am having the exact same problem, except my FItech runs straight to the battery. I Am getting no spark at plug and getting IAC fault code.

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No Spark using Fi timing control wiring