Using Vacuum Advance With FiTech Controlled Timing
Wayne, glad to hear it's running 3" loud and strong! I don't understand the code 36 since you're using the 2-wire dizzy. I would still try disconnecting the FiTech blue wire from anything so there is no chance it's picking up some stray voltage. As for the 105 code...maybe this helps:
https://www.obd-codes.com/p0105 I hope it's not that! I understand that's one of the sensors that's not replaceable by us.
The kickback thing is why I'm going to pull my timing back. The FiTech instructions say to set the base as high as possible, but my engine was having the same issues as yours. Hope you report back tomorrow that the 10* and phase adjustment is working for you. I have my battery disconnected because of the flexplate/starter issue so can't look at numbers right now, but I want to say 6.5 for the VR drift. Hopefully by next weekend I'll be running. Speaking of batteries, have you tried using a trickle charger? Mine stays hooked up all the time except on weekends and it really helps.
Rick, sorry but the link doesn't work comes error 404. No biggie. I use a trickle charger but have at least 4 different kinds. But here is the one that works best in winter it's a cheap $30 solar panel maintainer - does not supply a charge per-se but keeps the charge. It's about 12 inches by 4 inches and 1/4" deep.
OK back to what's going on. I think I may have done the same thing you did. I believe I broke 1 or 2 teeth in different spots on the flywheel. Anyway I had to crawl under the car because one of the hot wires on the starter got knocked off but was hanging on by a hair. Felt like 10 broken when I finally started her. When I got back to the garage after a tuning run turned it off. Thought I would try a hot start. As soon as I turned the key the starter engaged and locked the flywheel, would not spin - first good clue of broken tooth.
Let me back up a bit. I thought of turning the timing back to 10* but if you think about it, it's counter intuitive. By lowering it to 10* your reducing the full working timing load. Instead of hitting 50*- 52* total timing w/ vacuum advance your at 48*. My car just runs plain better with more vacuum. Now here's a caveat - what if you tried to remove 1*-3* of vacuum from the canister. How would you do this? the easy way - buy a tune-able vacuum advance. I don't like this but what if you some how put a very small plate at the end of the vacuum advance mechanism to reduce the amount of total pull at idle by a couple of degrees. The result should be instead of 16* you would 13* or 14*. Thusly, reducing the load on the starter for starting and still maintaining enough idle vacuum to keep the engine running smoothly. The rest of the tuning done in the handheld. Let me know what you think of idea?
Back to the drive _ everything stays the same but I changed the 1100 @ 45kpa to 15* and 1100 @ 95kpa to 18*. Even tho these setting aren't at 20* my car pulls strong right now. Seems to pull harder and smoother now than with all the mechanical stuff hooked up. Plus I have no backfires especially above 3500 rpms. I like the way it runs right now however I hate the way it starts. That's all for now.
Wayne
Wayne, fingers crossed you didn't break a tooth or two. If you have a high torque starter that permits clocking of where the solenoid is, check to make sure the screws are tight that holds the mounting bracket to the rest of the starter. When I pulled my starter to move it because of the different size flexplate, I found that one screw was missing and the other two were loose...that permits the pinion to hit the teeth at an angle. Might have been what actually broke the tooth on mine.
On the timing, dropping the base/initial to 10* won't impact the ability to reach 52*...you will still set 36*@3000/6000 and 36+16=52. There's a wider spread and so a little more chance of crossfire due to the phasing issue. Still not close to being half way to the next post as 52*-10*=42* crank/21* dizzy spread and again with 45* between posts, the 11* is still 3/4 the distance to the next post. 4* crank difference so just 2* additional dizzy degrees the spark has to jump. I'm using the crane adjustable canister. It comes with the plate to limit how much advance, but the plate does not work with MSD dizzys; does not fit. The vacuum advance should not be adding anything till the engine gets started...you had it hooked up when running mechanical advance and it wasn't an issue, so should not be when the ECU is managing the base/initial timing. Theoretically, if you were using 10* initial with weights, springs and the vacuum canister hooked up, it should fire the same now with the ECU sending the 10* signal for base/initial. But I agree that it sure doesn't feel that way. When mine is running again I might have someone turn the key to crank it (with fuel pump turned off so it can't start) and I'll see if the spark is actually at 10*. Maybe it's really that much harder for the spark to jump the 11* from rotor to post which is making the starts more difficult. When using the mech timing the rotor is centered on the post when cranking.
Starting problems seem to be the issue with so many folks whether it's timing or fuel related. Once the engine is running, it's great. Sure wish there was a lot more info on all this instead of us DIY folks hoping we're sharing good info! Hope you have a few more good days there to try to figure out how to get yours starting better.
Rick
Again Rick thanks for the good info and it only makes sense. Sometimes you have to listen to someone else to get perspective and that's what you give me. I don't know if I'll have time tomorrow to pull the starter and see what's happening. I know the gears weren't in perfect alignment from the beginning with this starter but it always worked. And like you said about the timing essentially being the same now or less by 2* it should start easier. Which gets back to rotor position at start-up. I know the phasing at 4000 is bang on because of checked it every time I put the light on it. Plus in the last 2 drives she's pulled real strong (seat of the pants test) in the mid to higher ranges. I believe we may have to play with the rotor phasing to make it accommodate the starting and performance.
Rick I sure like the way it runs right now I don't want to go back. Even if I can't use my original air cleaner base. The Fitech Classic didn't exist yet but doesn't have ignition control and neither did the Holley Stealth which looks just like a Holley carb. You can also run the Holley return-less. Or as I mentioned in a previous post FAST 2.0 has vacuum control built in in the advanced settings. But I hate throwing money at something until they make it right and I have to change. Look at all the new improvements lately and who's bought who out. Holley now owns Quick Fuel and Atomic efi. Just thinking out loud.
Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be a starter issue but I don't think so.
Wayne
Wayne, finally got mine running again and decided to stick with 10* base/initial with the rotor advanced 10* to account for the phasing. Not sure is it's just the larger flexplate or less timing, but the engine sure turns over easier during start. Running good, except for the initial startup issues that many of us seem to have. Will be focusing on that now. Did you fix your starter issue, or has the toy been put to bed for the winter?
Rick sorry for late reply - been in the garage working on the beast.
I like your thinking for the 10* advance = I'm going to do the same thing. Then add a couple of degrees in the idle setting - will have to play with that.
The 168 tooth will help turn it over easier for sure.
I pulled my starter last week to see about 10-15 teeth sheared off the ring gear. Only damage to the whole gear is in that one area. No damage to gears on the starter. Bought a new 168 tooth gear from Napa for $30.00 Can. A new MSD starter that has a gear reduction of 3.73 to 1 for faster turning as opposed to the 4.4 to 1 with more torque. That is the starter that ate my ring gear but it was my fault for not shimming it correctly when I should have - lesson learned. Plus the cost of the MSD starter.
What else I've done to shield my system from EMI/RFI is to purchase these ferrite rings - they come in all sizes - but they help shield wire from unwanted noise (amazon) cheap too. You'll find them on computer wires. Also, copper foil for wrapping short runs of wire and copper/tinned braiding to cover the copper foil as a final shield against unwanted noise. I then placed one ferrite ring at each end of the wire run for extra shielding. I'll take some pics tomorrow and post them for you to see. Like I said I had some noise codes come up.
Last thing I'm doing is ordering new spk. plug wires from a company called Magnecor. Supposedly, they make the best suppression wires in the business but you pay a little more. Check out their website https://www.magnecor.com. It impressed me.
Keep updating on your progress I'm interested in the results.
Wayne
I snapped a few pics of the shielding I'm applying. In the 1st pic are the items used: copper foil tape; copper/tinned braid and the ferrite rings (bag comes in 5 sizes -3mm, 5mm, 7mm, 9mm and 13mm).
I wound the individual wires with foil wrap then pulled over the braiding and finished with a ferrite ring at each end of the wire. I'm not quite finished cleaning up and making them fit right and pretty. Of course the last item will be the new Magnecor spk. plug wires to kill any left over EMI/RFI.
If everything goes as planned I hope to have no more fault codes.
I think the major problem for the fault codes was running the coil wire (fitech - black wire to MSD white wire) along side the MSD coil wires (pink and black) thusly inducing a magnetic field between the two wires creating the noise issue.
The other source of noise was the distributor 2-wire connection which I had left unplugged when I made the change to ECU control but did not remove the wires. So now I've removed it. Hand in hand with this problem is that there's a recommendation to spiral the two dist. wires together to help cancel some of that EMI, as well as, taping with foil tape these two wires and grounding them to my heat shield under the throttle body.
It snowed last night and it doesn't look like it's going to melt anytime soon. I'll be playing in the garage until spring now.
Wayne
Uploaded files:
- You need to login to have access to uploads.
Wayne...Very nice! With all the EMI shielding I would think you should be good to go. And bonus; should a nuclear war occur, you'll be able to drive your muscle machine into the sunset knowing the EMP won't shut you down! 🙂
I installed some ferrite chokes some time back to take care of some issues caused by switching to LED bulbs to replace 1157s and 56s. I'm running a high energy ignition, a Dakota Digital HDX dash which added electronic sensor for speedometer, a hi-power stereo with separate amp, Vintage air with electric controls...and other items that pushed the requirement for a 150 amp alternator and that greatly increased the amount of stray EMI. I've twisted pairs and used the ferrite chokes but still have some issues that creep up now and then such as fluxes in indicated speed. I want to use the braided shielding, but many of the lines I want to shield have end connectors from the vendor and I really don't want to cut the wires to be able to slide the shielding on. Maybe I'll do that in the Spring as I like the look of yours. Did you ground the braided lines?
Different topic. I noticed you have solid throttle linkage. With key on, engine not started, can you floor the accelerator pedal and get a 100% reading on the TPS? When running a carb I checked the plate position and could get full WOT. With the FiTech the best I can get is very low 90s. I also have solid linkage and the throw is just not long enough when I connect to the upper hole on the TB to overcome the high spring tension. I have a 383 with ~450 HP so not getting to 100% may not be having a big impact, but might with a 427 that requires much more air.
My current advance settings are 10* base/12* idle and then 20*,34*,36* at cruise MAP and 20*,36*,36* for WOT MAP with 1100, 2300, 5800 RPM breakpoints. Engine spins easy at start and no kickback, accelerates great and no surging at HW speeds when the full 52* advance is in. Still working on getting the fuel/air settings for starts correct. I tried creating a post on the FiTEch Users Facebook page to gather info from users with good start success, didn't work. Are you a member of that Facebook group? You mentioned previously that it would be nice if actual FiTech techs would chime in, or better, create some actual useful guides...I could not agree more! I enjoy working with other users, but having techs that have in-depth knowledge of how their systems are supposed to work share their wisdom would be great. Hell, I would be happy to just have a manual that lists EVERY one of the entry fields on the handheld and defines what they do and when they should be changed. I'm tired of hearing they are not there to teach. Defining the system inputs is not teaching, it's creating a basic tech/service manual. No matter how much you read to gain EFI knowledge, if you don't know how FiTech has implemented their solution, what their terms mean, it's impossible to apply the knowledge.
Cheers! Rick
I had to put an electronic speedometer where the clock used to be on my '66 Sting Ray, since I built a motor for it that redlines at 8000 rpm. As soon as I wound it up the first time, I blew out something in my mechanical tach. I take that tach signal directly from where the fitech gets its signal with no issues.
Rick, thanks for the kind words about my work.
Sounds like you've got a real load of electrical that can raise havoc with your system. But at least you have a 150 amp alternator. I may need to upgrade mine but I'll have it tested first.
I get what what your saying about the braiding and having to slide the braid over connectors, which may be too big, or having to cut wires and then solder and heat shrink especially if there's no room to make connections - I hate that. I grounded all but one because I couldn't - but I have it routed away from any hot sources of ignition. Even without the grding. it will work - just not as good. If you look at the last pic. above I used the copper foil wrap to grd. the distributor wires to my heat shield under the throttle body. This copper foil comes in handy. Use it as grding. cable if need be.
Still on the topic of EMI - I mentioned earlier about Magnecor spark plug wires ability to reduce EMI/RFI - Blazed over their whole website and decided to order a set of there wires today. If one reads about the construction of Magnecor wires vs. the high end wires others sell because really I do believe they lie to us to sell an inferior product(s). Anyway time will tell after I get them and install.
On the TPS - never seen 100% at wide open throttle. I think I saw something on the net about this, saying as long as you have full travel of the accelerator linkage even if you do not see 100% your still alright. When I hit it I'm sure I going full throttle even if it doesn't say 100% and yes it is in the 90's%. I'm not using the Fitech spring I'm using my stock spring but of course my geometry is different.
I like your numbers for the timing settings and I'll probably follow your lead on the numbers. The 10* initial with the 12* idle and your cruise and WOT settings should be solid. I'll also change my breakpoints at some point. I'm mirroring your settings when I get back on the road ----- in the spring (seems like a long time).
Rick glad to hear it starts without kickback and cruises good too, especially at 5500 ft elevation - kudos.
My biggest start issue is when it's colder than 40* F. OK when my car is hot and I have to start it - it turns over quick and starts right up with an initial idle rpm of 1200 then quickly drops to idle speed - 900 rpms. When it's cold and she starts depending on temp. sometimes I get a slightly advanced idle 1000-1100 other times 800-900 and sometimes if it's really cold 500-600 and I have to give some throttle for a couple of seconds until she evens out. Are you having any kinds of these problems?
-it would be nice if actual FiTech techs would chime in, or better, create some actual useful guides...I could not agree more! I enjoy working with other users, but having techs that have in-depth knowledge of how their systems are supposed to work share their wisdom would be great. We're on the same page here. Their manuals need better definitions as you say, as well as, everything else you mentioned near the bottom of your last post. I'm not holding my breath on it. It's taken me three years to figure it out so far. Basically from interacting with people like yourself and others I've posted with. So cheers to us.
the 2 pics are of my cleaned up wiring. May add a clamp on the firewall to anchor one of the cables closer to the center.
Wayne
65-StingRay
Uploaded files:
- You need to login to have access to uploads.